CDF VATICAN SAYS LUTHERANS WITHOUT APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION, VALID EUCHARIST OR CHURCH, WHILE EX CATHEDRA DOGMA,VATICAN COUNCIL II INDICATE THEY ARE HELL-BOUND UNLESS THEY CONVERT

Here is the final e-mail I have received.My response is included within her  e-mail.Note how she does not answer any of the questions.Probably it was the first time she was exposed to someone  who was not a member of a traditional Catholic Church and is quoting Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church to support the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church.

Lionel, you are WRONG. Pure and simple. And if you tell that to Protestants you will be MISREPRESENTING the Catholic church!

Lionel: According to a recent document of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Protestants (Lutherans included) do not have apostolic succession, nor a valid Eucharist and they cannot be called Churches.


According to the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus they need to convert to avoid Hell. This is also the message of Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II. This has also been the teaching of popes, Church Councils and the saints.

1. Lutherans can be saved under the "Baptism by desire" doctrine WITHOUT a Catholic Baptism

Lionel: According to the Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston relative to Fr.Leonard Feeney a person can be saved with implicit faith (baptism of desire) in ‘certain circumstances’.So it means that it is known only to God. You cannot say that in general Lutherans are saved with the baptism of desire.In my last post I asked you which was the Church document which said that Lutherans are saved in general in their religion?
You have not answered.
You cannot make the exception the general rule.

2. The Catholic church recognizes a Lutheran Baptism as a VALID Baptism because Lutherans accept baptism as a sacrament.

Lionel: The Catholic Church recognizes the baptism of the Lutherans I agreed in the last post. This is valid if a Lutheran dies immediately,as it is for a pagan-convert.The Lutheran then needs to live the Gospel in the Catholic Church to be saved. (Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14). Even if a Catholic is baptized and believes in Jesus like the Lutheran but dies with a mortal sin he is on the way to Hell.
The Catholic Church is the only Church Jesus founded and its teachings are absolute . They are not relative as you suggested i.e a Lutheran will be judged according to his conscience.


If he has a good conscience he will  listen to the Holy Spirit and enter the Catholic Church.

but you obviously do not believe me so....

Lionel :You have not answered any of the questions which I have asked you and you are shifting the focus on to something which is not in dispute.


After the initial valid Baptism  of a Lutheran, who lives on in society,Catholic Faith is needed for salvation and this includes the Sacraments.

1. Write to EWTN (www.ewtn.com ) and ask Fr Mitch or Johnnette Benkovic ... OR....

You have not answered any of the questions I have asked you. It is time for you to write and do something to save your soul. Since you are not in communion with the Catholic Church.

2. Ask your priest ..... OR .....

Here are some of the questions you have not answered.

1. If implicit faith is not an exception is it the ordinary way of salvation for all non Catholics? The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1257) says the baptism of water (given to adults with Catholic Faith ) is the ordinary means of salvation.The Church knows of no other means. While 1257 also recognises that there could be exceptions to the Sacraments.


2. Secondly do you recognise there is an ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. For centuries the Church taught according to this dogma that everyone with no exception needs Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to avoid Hell.You have not commented on this point.


3.Thirdly Vatican Council II, Ad gentes 7 says those who know about the Catholic Church and yet do not enter are on the way to Hell. This would mean millions of educated non Catholics throughout the world in modern cities are going to Hell.'those who de not believe will be condemned'-Mark 16:16.


4. So you still have not quoted any Church text which says that Lutherans and other non Catholics can be saved in general in their religion without them having to convert into the Catholic Church.

3. log on http://catholic.com and ask the question there ("do Lutherans have to be baptized Catholics to not go to hell?")

Lionel : I repeat that if Lutherans or Protestants are baptized they do not have to be baptized again.If they continue to believe in Jesus and want to follow Him and go to Heaven and not Hell they have to become Catholics.

You are obviously trying to interpret something you don't quite understand.

Lionel: First you make the premise that I do not understand then you build upon it.

That's fine... you don't HAVE to understand but you really then, should ask someone who DOES understand the documents to help you understand what it teaches because you can really misrepresent the church and do a lot of harm if you talk to other people.

Lionel : I hope you understand what I said in charity in the last post i.e I do not know which Church you assume you belong to but you are clearly in mortal sin.


1) You reject an ex cathedra dogma


2) And so you reject the infallibility of the Holy Father.


3)You do not consider this a mortal sin and receive the Eucharist in this terrible condition.

So I hope you will PLEASE take my advice.

Lionel : The advice of an apologist who cannot support her statements with Church texts is ….

You have nothing to lose in asking an expert about this, do you?


If you are right he/she will agree with you... if you are wrong, he/she will correct you.

Lionel : Sue you have not answered basic questions on the faith while I have supported my answers with references to Church  documents.

Sound good?

Lionel: Sounds like you have closed your mind and cannot give up your heresies.

Blessings to you... sorry I don't mean to push you off but I don't have time to pursue this - I obviously am not getting through to you so someone more expert or more skillful in writing is needed at this point.


As they say "teach man not ready...waste of time... NOT teach man ready, waste of man" You obviously do not want to be taught ....

Any further emails from you will be deleted except if the title (subject) reads "You are right - Lutherans do not go to hell"

Sorry, I'm just too busy for this.


blessings,


Sue

Lionel : I have been using our communication on my blog without disclosing  your e-mail address. If any of you three apologists would like to follow it up later your welcome to send any message across to me. Remember you are in mortal sin. Reflect on that while there is still time on earth.

In Christ
Lionel