An in resident nun, Sr. Assumpta Williams FMDM, who lives with her community at the Beda and teaches theology and Latin there also dissents on the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesaim nulla salus.
Why does the Congregation for Catholic Education, Vatican permit this over so many years? Is the Beda following the official policy of the Vatican Congregation and Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski, Archbishop Jean-Louis Bruguès, O.P., and Msgr. A.Vincenzo Zani ?
Mons. Strange Charles Roderick, is the Rector of the Beda Pontifical College, an English Seminary, under the Bishops of England and Wales. He does not believe that the Church is necessary for salvation. There are two books written by the Rector Mons. Roderick Strange, The Catholic Faith and Living Catholicism. They are available in the Beda Library for the seminarians to read. He rejects the Catholic Church's teachings on Mission (see page 49, Chapter titled: Communion in The Catholic Faith and the last chapter: Evangelisation in Living Catholicism). He told me that dogmas/doctrines evolve .When I pointed out to him that they have not ‘evolved’ on Mission, as indicated in Ecclesia di Asia, Dominus Iesus etc he replied that it shows that they need to evolve. This is the witness to our Catholic belief from a Rector-formator. The Rector also encouraged Fr. John Fuellenbach’s book Throw Fire to be taught at the Beda.
He had a poster on Catholic Mission and Salvation removed from the Beda Notice Board on outside the Church there is no salvation. It has been a few years now that I have been sending him material. He is unwilling to respond in writing to two questions on Catholic Mission and salvation. One of his books has a chapter in which he is ‘soft’ on homosexuality.
Funding has been approved by Propaganda Fide, Vatican for the Beda Pontifical Seminary.Propaganda Fide in spite of being informed over the years has given millions of euros to the Beda College. The college has the approval of the bishops of England and Wales and the Congregation for Catholic Education looks the other way.
The Beda College Rector Mons. Roderick Strange and the seminarian’s bishop recommend a seminarian to Propaganda Fide. Propaganda Fide then approves of the funds to pay for the student’s tuition board and lodging for the full year. With the approval of my bishop Propaganda Fide had approved funds for me to live and study at Beda in Dec 2002- Jan 2003.
On Mission Sunday October 2002 I placed an announcement on the Beda College Notice Board .The subject was Outside the Catholic Church No Salvation. I was told by the Deacon (Now Fr.John Kyne, Nottingham Diocese, England) that it was not the Catholic Church’s teaching. The Deacons were supported by the Rector and Vice Rector (Mons. Andrew Faley who now works in the Inter Religious and ecumenism section of the Catholic Conference of Bishops England).
It is about eight years for me now that I have not been given permission by the Rector Mons. R. Strange to enter the Beda College. The last time I was there as a seminarian I wrote to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith about
a). an excommunicated Dominican priest Matthew Fox’s book available in the library Spirituality Section of the Beda College..
b) Fr.John Fuellenbach SVD’s book Throw Fire was part of the syllabus. During his lectures at the Beda he said he rejected the church’s teachings on outside the church no salvation. He continued to be employed at the Beda and the North American College (Catholic seminary) Rome.
c) An elderly Dominican priest who still teaches philosophy at the Angelicum, Rome said Catholics could become members of the Freemason social clubs since they were not part of the Freemason Society.
My Spiritual Director Fr.Jim Brand, an English priest at the Beda in an interview for Vatican Radio, (where he says the Church needs to change), would tell me mortal sin is only hatred of God….
How are they allowed to offer Mass in the Beda chapel I asked the former Secretary of the Congregation for the Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. This is a liturgical issue.
It’s the policy of this seminary not to mention Hell or discourage any references to it. Cardinal Newman, who is to be beatified soon, would write that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church of Jesus. Protestants would realize that they have no basis for their doctrines.
Yet it is the policy of the Beda to consider Protestant communities as equal paths to salvation. This is the Beda attitude to the Anglicans at the Anglican centre in Rome, which I visited along with the Rector, faculty and seminarians.
For Cardinal Newman, Islam and other religions were not paths to salvation. This is still the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Vatican Council II says Islam is not a path to salvation (Ad Gentes 7).Also, their Prophet Mohammad knew about the Church, the Quran indicates, but he did not enter and become a believer. So he was oriented to Hell according to Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14).
With so much of the Beda budget spent on feasting they would not be interested in these ‘little details’.
Their ecumenism policy is contrary to the infallible teaching outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. In Rome they have the San Egidio-Jewish Left model of ecumenism which the Beda follows along with the Pallotti Fathers and the Paulist Fathers.
It’s the policy of this seminary not to mention Hell or discourage any references to it. Cardinal Newman, who is to be beatified soon, would write that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church of Jesus. Protestants would realize that they have no basis for their doctrines.
Yet it is the policy of the Beda to consider Protestant communities as equal paths to salvation. This is the Beda attitude to the Anglicans at the Anglican centre in Rome, which I visited along with the Rector, faculty and seminarians.
With so much of the Beda budget spent on feasting they would not be interested in these ‘little details’.
Their ecumenism policy is contrary to the infallible teaching outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. In Rome they have the San Egidio-Jewish Left model of ecumenism which the Beda follows along with the Pallotti Fathers and the Paulist Fathers.
Vatican Council II states that all people need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation (Ad Gentes 7). Beda Pontifical College, Rome teaches that de facto non Catholics can be saved in invincible ignorance and with the baptism of desire. So defacto non Catholics can be saved in general without the Baptism of water and Catholic Faith.So, all people do not have to enter the Catholic Church according to the Beda Faculty.To reject an ex cathedra dogma is a grave sin as is homosexuality.
The Rector and Sr. Assumpta misinterpret Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If they say those in invincible ignorance, a good conscience and with the baptism of desire can be saved why has it to be a denial of the dogma which says everyone with no exception needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church for salvation?
It’s simple.
If there is anyone saved with invincible ignorance, a good conscience or with the baptism of desire, it will be known only to God. Everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell and there are no exceptions.
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Catholics in error interpret the Catechism and the Vatican Council II according to the Jewish Left media and believe there is no other interpretation. We need to interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church,Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949, in line with the ex cathedra dogma which says everyone needs to be a visible member of the catholic Church and there are no exceptions.
The Magisterium of the Church cannot reject an ex cathedra dogma. So interpret all Church documents according to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.Catholic Church documents say everyone needs to be a visible member of the Church to avoid Hell and there is no Church document issued to refute it.
1. For instance we can misinterpret the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
In order for someone to be saved, it explained, “it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church as an actual member, but it is necessary at least to be united to her by desire and longing.”-Letter of the Holy Office 1949. The same message is there in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
True, however this (not receiving the Baptism of water as an adult and being saved) is only known to God. It is not as real as the Baptism of Water. So it was wrong to suggest that everyone does not have to be a visible member of the Church, as if the Baptism of Desire is explicit and visible by nature. So this is a distorted interpretation of the Letter of the Holy Office using the Cushing Doctrine. It is heresy. It is clear ‘double speak’. Discerning Catholics consider this new doctrine a hoax, the equivalent of the fabled Emperors New Clothes. Liberals call it a developed doctrine.
Through his books Fr. Hans Kung uses the Cushing Doctrine, suggesting Lumen Gentium 16 refers to explicit and not implicit salvation, to question the infallibility of the pope ex cathedra. He maintains the Kung Deception that the Church has retracted extra ecclesiam nulla salus after Vatican Council II.
Without the Cushing Doctrine, one could say: For salvation everyone needs to be a visible (explicit) member of the Catholic Church with no exception and if there is anyone with the Baptism of Desire or who is in invincible ignorance it will be known to God only.
If this point in the Letter is misinterpreted one could also misinterpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
2. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says the Church alone saves from the flood like Noah’s Ark and so everyone needs to enter the Ark to be saved. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
N.845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.-Catechism of the Catholic Church n.845
Here we have an interpretation of the Catechism affirming the dogma.
3."Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.-Catechism of the Catholic Church 846
CCC 846,847 like Lumen Gentium 16 refer to implicit salvation, those saved ‘in certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).They are known to God only.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.-Catechism of the Catholic Church,N.847
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."-Catechism of the Catholic Church,N.848
Those saved implicitly (CCC 847,848) for us, they are just a concept, something hypothetical, a possibility. It is not explicit. Since it is not explicit it does not contradict CCC845, 836.It does not contradict Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14 and the infallible teaching outside the church there is no salvation.
CCC836 which says all people need to enter the Catholic Church include all Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, Jesus’ Mystical Body.
If CCC 846,847(invincible ignorance etc) referred to explicit salvation, it would be irrational. Since we cannot judge who has a baptism of desire or is in genuine invincible ignorance.It would also mean that the Catechism, which is the ordinary Magisterium of the Church, is correcting and contradicting an ex cathedra teaching. So it would be a rejection of the dogma on the infallibility of the pope.It would mean CCC 846,847 (implicit invincible ignorance etc) is a new Christian doctrine or Christian Revelation.
Yet this teaching was not mentioned for the first time in the Catechism of the Catholic Church or Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium16).It was referred to in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston, Richard Cushing. The popes over the centuries always considered those saved by implicit faith as, implicit. Hence the ex cathedra teaching said everyone with no exception needs explicit faith (the baptism of water and Catholic Faith).
So 846,847 do not refer to explicit salvation. Otherwise it would be irrational, illogical and contrary to the Magisterium of the past and present.
The Catholic Church is saying everybody needs to be a visible member of the Church to avoid Hell.Those who are aware of Jesus and the Church and yet do not enter are on the way to Hell, definitely.
CCC is also saying that all non-Catholics in general need to enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. All. If there is anyone among them with the baptism of desire, invincible ignorance etc (implicit faith) it will be known to God only. We cannot judge.
De facto everyone needs to enter the Catholic Church for salvation.
De jure there could be the probability, known only to God, of someone ‘in certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949) being saved with implicit faith. God will provide all the helps in the manner known to Him only; it could include explicit faith (the baptism of water).So if someone says the Catechism says that they can be saved who are in invincible ignorance etc, the answer is: 'Yes, as a concept only. In principle.' De facto everyone explicitly needs to be a Catholic to go to Heaven is the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.(CCC 845).Simon Rafe needs to clarify this point.
"For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament" (CCC 1259).
In other words everyone needs to de facto be a 'card carrying member’ of the Catholic Church, everyone needs to have his name on a Parish Register. All who are in Heaven, people of different countries, cultures and times, are Catholics, the chosen people of God, the Elect, the people of the New Covenant. ONLY CATHOLICS IN HEAVEN! ( http://www.youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV#p/a/u/0/2Dcfj0PU_JQ) .
4.In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the sub title‘Outside the Church there is no salvation’ has been placed over N.846.It should really be above number 845.
The ex cathedra dogma says everyone needs to explicitly enter the Church for salvation. It is in agreement with n.845
N.845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church....(quoted above in full )
Here is the ex cathedra dogma again :
1. “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215). Ex cathedra.2.“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.).Ex cathedra.3.“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex cathedra – from the website Catholicism.org and “No Salvation outside the Church”: Link List, the Three Dogmatic Statements Regarding EENS http://nosalvationoutsideofthecatholicchurch.blogspot.com/
It says everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.
So CCC 847,848 must be interpreted as referring to implicit salvation, in ’certain circumstances’ and unknown to us, otherwise it would contradict the infallible teaching.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.-Catechism of the Catholic Church
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."-Catechism of the Catholic Church
CCC 847, 848 do not refer to explicit salvation and so do not contradict the dogma. There is no de facto baptism of desire that we can know of. There is no explicit Baptism of desire that we can know of. While implicit Baptism of Desire is only a concept for us. Since it is known only to God.
So if asked if everyone needs to enter the Catholic Church for salvation the answer is YES.
5. Everyone explicitly needs to enter the Catholic Church for salvation and those who have the baptism of desire or are invincible ignorance would be known only to God.
All men are certainly called to this Catholic unity. The Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ and all mankind belong to or are ordered to Catholic unity.-CCC 836
Here again we have an affirmation of the ex cathedra dogma and the word all is used as in Ad Gentes 7.
6.
How do we understand this saying from the Church Fathers? All salvation comes from Christ through his Body, the Church which is necessary for salvation because Christ is present in his Church...-CCC846
Here the Catechism places de jure and defacto salvation together. It does not conflict with the ex cathedra teaching that everyone with no exception needs to enter the Catholic Church .We cannot personally know any cases of a genuine invincible ignorance, baptism of desire or a good conscience.
7.
However, those, who through no fault of their own do not know either the Gospel of Christ or his Church, can achieve salvation by seeking God with a sincere heart and by trying to do God's will (Second Vatican Council). Although God can lead all people to salvation, the Church still has the duty to evangelize all men.-CCC 848
Those who are in invincible ignorance can be saved -and this does not conflict with the ex cathedra dogma that everyone with no exception needs to enter the Church to avoid Hell. It is a conceptual, de jure understanding.
8. CCC 1257 The Necessity of Baptism
CCC 1257 affirms the dogma when it says that the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water. This is a reference to explicit salvation for all with no known exceptions.
CCC 1257 also says that for salvation God is not restricted to the Sacraments. This must not be interpreted as opposing the dogma or the earlier part of CCC 1257. This is a possibility, 'in certain circumstances' (Letter of the Holy Office 1949) and we cannot judge any specific cases. Th Baptism of Desire is never explicit for us humans.
I repeat the Church refers to the ordinary means of salvation (Redemptoris Missio 5. The word ordinary is used in RM 55).
In Dominus Iesus the words de jure and de facto are used in the Introduction.
In CCC 1257 we have the baptism of water as the ordinary means of salvation for all people with no exception.
In CCC 1257 we also have those saved with implicit faith (invincible ignorance,Baptism of Desire
etc) as the extraordinary means of salvation.('God is not limited to the Sacraments').
VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. -Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257
The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 while affirming the dogma and the need for everyone to be a visible member of the Church to go to Heaven with no exceptions- also says that 'in certain circumstances' a person can be saved with implicit faith, if God wills it.
However, those, who through no fault of their own do not know either the Gospel of Christ or his Church, can achieve salvation by seeking God with a sincere heart and by trying to do God's will (Second Vatican Council). Although God can lead all people to salvation, the Church still has the duty to evangelize all men.-CCC 848
St.Thomas Aquinas says God will 'provide the helps necessary for salvation' by sending a person to baptize the one needing help in this extraordinary situation OR telling the person what he needs to do.
Here we are in a conceptual area, open to theories since this is the nature of the baptism of desire etc which cannot be explicitly known to us humans.
St.Thomas Aquinas also said that everyone with no exception needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church for salvation. De facto everyone needs to enter. De jure there could be the man in the forest for St.Thomas Aquinas. He did not have a problem with de facto and de jure.
On the Saint Benedict Centre website, the community founded by Fr.Leonard Feeney in New Hampshire,USA it is written, that Fr.Leonard Feeney knew that his view on the Baptism of Desire was only an opinion.Finally everyone's view on the Baptism of Desire is ONLY AN OPINION. De jure. This is seen clearly in CCC 1257.
It reminds one of Jesus' saying that 'he who does not collect with me disperses' and 'those who are not against us are for us.'
9.When it is said that only those who know about the Catholic Church need to enter to avoid Hell (Ad Gentes 7) we can mistake this to mean only this category of people are on the way to Hell. Instead we know that all non Catholics are on the way to Hell with no exception ( ex cathedra dogma) and if there is any one among them who is in invincible ignorance etc it will be known only to God.
Those who are in invincible ignorance can be saved-and this does not conflict with the ex cathedra dogma that everyone with no exception needs to enter the Church to avoid Hell. It is a conceptual, de jure understanding.
So the Catechism is not asking us to reject the notion that one can be saved without the Sacraments according to the ordinary way of salvation. (Redemptoris Missio 55). If one says it does it is a misinterpretation of the Catechism.
Where it refers to being saved without the Sacraments it is referring to that exceptional case, which in 'certain circumstances'(Letter of the Holy Office 1949) are known only to God. We do not even know if there has been any case of the Baptism of desire during our lifetime.
A.Practically speaking everyone needs to enter the Catholic Church to go to Heaven.
B.Theoretically (de jure, in principle) a person can be saved through implicit faith (if God wills it) even without the Baptism of water.This is the official teaching of the Church.
B is in accord with the Catechism which mentions the Baptism of water as a concept (it cannot be anything else other than a concept)
B is in accord with Fr.Leonard Feeney who mentioned the Baptism of Desire (catechumen).It was a concept in his mind (something dejure).
B is in accord with the website of the Saint Benedict Centre,one of Fr.Leonard Feeney's communities, which defines the Baptism of Desire. A definition is a concept.
So de facto everybody with no exception needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church, Jesus' Mystical Body to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Here are some questions and answers in response to a post on the blog Australia Incognita which could be helpful .
1. The blog seeks a middle ground, since it is held that the Church does not teach that everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.
Answer: The Church Councils, popes and saints for centuries taught that everyone with no exception needs to be a visible member member of the Church. There was no middle ground.
2. This was the teaching of the past but not anymore?
Answer : How can an ex cathdra dogma be superseded by a Church Document ? It is infallible and there for all time.Also when we pray the Athanasius Creed we say outside the church there is no salvation. It begins , 'Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith…' . It concludes,'This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.'
3. The dogma does not say that everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church.
Answer : Here is the ex cathedra dogma:
1. “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215). Ex cathedra.
2.“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.).Ex cathedra.
3.“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex cathedra – from the website Catholicism.org and “No Salvation outside the Church”: Link List, the Three Dogmatic Statements Regarding EENS http://nosalvationoutsideofthecatholicchurch.blogspot.com/
The ex cathedra teaching says everyone needs to be a visible (explicit) member of the Catholic Church.
...it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” -(Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 302.). Ex Cathedra..none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation…
...No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” - (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex Cathedra
4.
Feeneyism is another popular heresy on the extreme traditionalist side of the ledger. It is a heresy not least because it denies the notion of 'baptism of desire' (those who die before baptism but with a desire to receive it) and 'baptism of blood' (martyrdom for the faith on the part of the unbaptised).
Answer : To claim that Feeneyism denies the Baptism of desire as a concept is a falsehood. To claim that there is a de facto or de jure baptism of desire is irrational.To claim that the Baptism of desire is as explicit as the Baptism of water is irrational and contradicts the ex cathedra infallible teaching that everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic church.
In The Bread of Life, Fr.Leonard Feeney referred to the Baptism of Desire in the case of the catechuman, as a concept.The Saint Benedict Centre. teh community which he founded, has a definition of the Baptism of desire. They call it a definition on their website, so it is a concept.So as a concept they do not reject the Baptism of desire.For us the Baptism of desire cannot be anything else but a general concept.
So when a blog, Wikipedia or other encyclopedia says Fr.Leonard Feeney rejected the Baptism of Desire what do they mean ? Does he mean Fr.Feeney rejected it de facto (explicitly) or that he rejected it as a concept (de jure)?
5.Heresy?
Answer : Fr.Leonard Feeney and those who support him like me, deny explicit knowable Baptism of Desire but not Baptism of Desire as a concept which God is free to gift to whom He chooses.
Here is the definition of the Baptism of desire from the website Catholicism.org. Baptism of Desire is not denied as a concept by this community of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
5. Regarding baptism of desire:No Pope, Council, or theologian says that baptism of desire is a sacrament.Likewise no Pope, Council, or theologian says that baptism of desire incorporates one into the Catholic Church.Question: Without contradicting the thrice defined Dogma, “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church”, and the infallible teaching of the Council of Trent, how can one define the expression baptism of desire?Answer: The following definition of baptism of desire can be made which will be totally consistent with the infallible teaching of the Council of Trent and with the thrice defined dogma of “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church”. This definition of baptism of desire goes as follows:In its proper meaning, this consists of an act of perfect contrition or perfect love [that is Charity, which necessarily implies that one has the True Faith], and the simultaneous desire for baptism. It does not imprint an indelible character on the soul and the obligation to receive Baptism by water remains. (From page 126 of The Catholic Concise Encyclopedia , by Robert Broderick, M.A., copyright 1957, Imprimatur by Francis Cardinal Spellman, Archbishop of New York, August 31, 1956) - Desire, Justification, and Salvation at the Council of Trent, by Br. David Mary, M.I.C.M., Tert. May 02nd, 2005
We know the baptism of desire is always implicit.So there is no Baptism of desire that we can know of.
We know that since God can choose to save a person according to implicit Baptism of desire, then the Baptism of desire is only a concept, a general concept.So it cannot really be said that supporters of Fr.Leonard Feeney reject the Baptism of desire as a concept.It cannot be said that they are in heresy.
In more precise language we can say there is no explicit baptism of desire that we know of. So it is irrational to suggest that the baptism of desire is explicit.
So if one states that there is a Baptism of Desire without the Sacraments, it still is a concept.
If one states that there is a Baptism of desire which must culminate in the Baptism of water it still is a concept.
Secondly if there is an explicit baptism of desire claim made then it is heresy.Since the person is denying an ex cathedra dogma which says everyone needs to be a visible member of the Church with no exception.
6. Pagans who follow natural justice.
"the pagans to whom the Gospel is not proclaimed, if they follow the dictates of natural justice and try to seek God with sincerity, will go to the beatific vision" as an example of an error that they claim has long been condemned,...
Answer:This passage is no problem for the traditionalists.
Supporters of Fr.Leonard Feeney agree that as a concept there could be people with perfect contrition, perfect love and the desire for the baptism of water. God will provide the help they need.
Here is the quote from their website:
Answer: The following definition of baptism of desire can be made which will be totally consistent with the infallible teaching of the Council of Trent and with the thrice defined dogma of “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church”. This definition of baptism of desire goes as follows:
In its proper meaning, this consists of an act of perfect contrition or perfect love [that is Charity, which necessarily implies that one has the True Faith], and the simultaneous desire for baptism. It does not imprint an indelible character on the soul and the obligation to receive Baptism by water remains. (From page 126 of The Catholic Concise Encyclopedia , by Robert Broderick, M.A., copyright 1957, Imprimatur by Francis Cardinal Spellman, Archbishop of New York, August 31, 1956) (Emphasis mine)- Desire, Justification, and Salvation at the Council of Trent, by Br. David Mary, M.I.C.M., Tert. May 02nd, 2005,website Catholicism.org, Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, St.Benedict Center,NH
They however recognize that implicit Baptism of Desire can never be known explicitly nor be repeated like the Baptism of water, it is a grace from God. So it does not contradict the infallible teaching which says everyone with no exception needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.
7. Does the Catechism of the Catholic Church oppose the dogma.
"Since Christ died for the salvation of all, those can be saved without Baptism... all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of Desire)...."
Is the CCC's position reconcilable with tradition on this subject? In fact I think it is.
Answer : No it is not, unless, you misinterpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Christ died for the salvation of all people but to receive this salvation all people need to enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell (Dominus Iesus 20 etc). Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church say all people need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation.
All men are certainly called to this Catholic unity. The Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ and all mankind belong to or are ordered to Catholic unity.-CCC 836
The Father wants to reunite all humanity into his Son's Church. According to St. Augustine and St. Ambrose, the Church was prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saved the world from the flood.-CCC 845
Pope Pius XII tells us that only in ‘certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949) and so only known to God, can a person be saved with implicit desire and longing etc. So this is not the general norm. The ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water.
So if we suggest that being saved with the baptism of water etc is the ordinary means of salvation then we misinterpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It is contrary to reason since we cannot give anyone the Baptism of desire and neither do we know who has genuine invincible ignorance.
It is also heresy since it contradicts the ex cathedra dogma which says everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church.
It would also mean that the Catechism denies the dogma of the infallibility of the pope ex cathedra.
In fact CCC 845 affirms the dogma and tradition.
N.845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.-Catechism of the Catholic Church n.845
8. The Baltimore Catechism contradicts the dogma.
And fully traditional texts such as the Baltimore Catechism go so far as to allow that those who through their own grave fault do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church can in fact be saved.
Answer : The Baltimore Catechism does not claim that this is the ordinary way of salvation.It does not claim that this is an explicit, repeatable means of salvation like the Baptism of water.It does not claim that we know anyone in particular who is in this condition and was saved.Neither does it claim that we know or can know any one in principle in this condition who was saved or can be saved.Neither is it said that these cases contradict the infallible teaching that everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.If such claims are made then it is heresy and not the teaching of the Catholic Church.
9. This subject is confusing.
And one that it is difficult to get a good handle on because it is one of those areas of theology where there have been relatively few dogmatic teachings defined, and thus there is a large area for legitimate theological debate.
Answer: It is a subject on which one can ‘get a good handle on’ if you do not deny that the dogma says that everyone with no exception needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. This is defined.
10.Can the Baptism of desire be entirely implicit?
what constitutes baptism of desire - how explicit a knowledge of God, the Church and the faith, for example, is required, or can it be entirely implicit?
Answer : Whatever be the requirements for a person to have a baptism of desire acceptable to God, it is unknown to us. So it is always implicit for us.When can the Baptism of Desire ever be explicit for us?
11. Can Muslisms be saved.
A sub-set of this debate goes to the question of whether the Islamic God is the same as as the Christian God - and hence whether Muslims can be saved...
Answer:The dogma says Muslims need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation. So we know all Muslims with no exception need Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to avoid Hell and if there is anyone among them in genuine invincible ignorance, with the Baptism of Desire or a conscience which God will consider good on the Day of Judgment it will only known to God.
Related points:
What does the Magisterium of the Catholic Church teach today?
The Magisterium teaches that everyone with no exception needs to explicitly enter the Catholic Church through Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to go to Heaven and avoid Hell (Ex cathedra extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II, Catechism of the Catholic Church n.836, Dominus Iesus 20 etc).LG 16 refers to those saved implicitly and not explicitly. Those with the baptism of desire, genuine invincible ignorance and a good conscience are known to God only. They are always implicit and subjective cases.There are no de facto cases of baptism of desire that we know of.
Only those who know about the Catholic Church and do not enter will go to Hell ?
They will definitely go to Hell according to Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II. However all non Catholics are oriented to Hell unless they explicitly convert into the Catholic Church.If there are any among them any who are in invincible ignorance etc it will known only to God.
The Holy Spirit is also present in non-Catholic religions?
Yes, in only the good and holy things. There are also ‘errors, deficiencies and superstition’(Dominus Iesus) in these religions where the Holy Spirit cannot be present.Whatever good is found in these religions are a preparation for the Gospel, the members of these religions are oriented towards the Catholic Church and are all called to be members(Notification,Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith relative to Fr. Jacques Dupuis S.J , 2001).
Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicted for heresy?
There is no Church Document which says Fr.Leonard Feeney of Boston was excommunicated for heresy. He was excommunicated for indiscipline. He did not go to Rome to defend himself.Assuming he was excommunicated for heresy the ordinary Magisterium of a pope or a cardinal's statement does not supersede an infallible teaching, in this case thrice defined.
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