Monday, February 28, 2011

The Church teaches through Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) and the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus that all Muslims unless they convert into the Church are oriented to Hell.

Jim:
The heart of your deviation from Catholic teaching is your insistence that there are not and cannot be specific instances of non-Catholics being saved who are not formal and explicit members of the Catholic Church.

Lionel: Wrong. I repeat again that there can be people saved in invincible ignorance and with the baptism of desire and we accept this only in principle since we do not know specific cases. It is only known to God.

You yourself admit we do not know of specific cases.

So I repeat again that there can persons saved implicitly and you do not know a single case so please do not posit it against the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II. The Church has not retracted extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Jim:

On this principle

Lionel: I accept that there can be people saved implicitly, why don’t you finally accept it?


Jim:
you cannot explain

Lionel: I accept all the martyrs of the Catholic Church. I accept all those recognised as saints. This does not conflict with the dogma that everyone with no exception needs to enter the Church for salvation.

Similarly there can be persons saved in invincible ignorance etc and who are known only to God and this does not conflict with the dogma that everyone needs to be a formal member of the Church for salvation.

Jim:
the actual teaching and practice of the Catholic Church which

1) venerates as Saints the just patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses. etc.) who had no explicit knowledge of the Incarnate Christ and the demands of His Church;

Lionel: They were all waiting in Abraham’s Bosom and after the Resurrection they could go to Heaven.

Jim:
2) venerates as Saints various Saints of the Russian Orthodox Church such as St. Sergius of Radonez (+1392), St. Nilus of Sorra (+1508), St. Dimitri of Rostov (+1709, etc,, who lived very holy lives, had no or little contact with the Catholic Church, and were certainly not visible members of the Catholic Church.

Lionel: If the Church officially venerates them fine. If they were not visible members of the Catholic Church and they are in Heaven fine. God decides.

The members of the Russian Orthodox Church need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation. The dogma specifically mentions ‘schismatics’ as needing to enter the Church for salvation.

Jim:
3) acknowledges as “martyrs” not only St. Charles Lwanga and 12 Catholic Companions In Uganda (1886) who were killed out of hatred for refusing to commit homosexual acts, but also some specific Anglicans who similarly refused to betray Christian morals.

Lionel: If the Catholic Church recognises someone as a martyr or a saint then we accept it. We believe they are in Heaven.

However in general Christians need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation and if someone is not recognised as a saint or martyr in the Church we cannot presume he or she is saved.

Jim:
You remain disingenuous in putting your own peculiar spin on Catholic doctrine in reducing the salvation of non-Catholics to a mere abstract “concept” or “principle” whereas the Church states unequivocally that there ARE in Heaven baptized souls who were not visible members of the Catholic Church

Lionel:

Jim, quite a few times I have mentioned that in principle we accept that a non Catholic can be saved ‘in certain circumstances’’ with the baptism of desire or invincible ignorance etc(Letter of the Holy Office 1949).

We can only accept it in principle since de facto (in reality) we do not know any specific case.

When the Church declares someone a martyr or saint then we accept this specific case.

Jim:

as well as the just who may never have heard of Christ and His Church but corresponded with a righteous conscience to the graces for salvation they received from Christ’s merciful love.

Lionel:

True they can be saved. Again please do not assume that you know any case of a person with a righteous conscience who is saved. We do not know any specific case.

So do not use the false assumption here to reject the dogma.

Jim:

The pagans who received justification and salvation certainly never had baptism by water.

Lionel:

Those who had justification and salvation without the baptism of water would be known only to God. Please do not assume to know a single case and then imply every body does not have to enter the Church as the dogma and Vatican Council II says.

Jim:

Then, whereas the Church refuses to state who is in Hell (even Judas)

Lionel:

Do not imply that the Church states that Judas is in Heaven. I have mentioned this before quite a few times, if the Church does not say that someone is in Hell neither does it say that someone is in Heaven.

If you accept the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence then you know that the Church does indicate that there are millions of people in Hell.

Jim:

you in your rigorism (smacking of Jansenism) place Mohammed there, expressing some secret knowledge the Church does not claim.

Lionel: The Church teaches through Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) and the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus that all Muslims unless they convert into the Church are oriented to Hell. Dominus Iesus 20 says the Church is needed for salvation. The Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 repeats the teachings of the Church Fathers and says everyone needs to enter the Church as through a door for salvation.

So this is not a personal teaching. It is the official teaching of the Catholic Magisterium before and after Vatican Council II.

Jim:

In your tortuous explanation of Nulla Salus Extra Ecclesiam, you perpetuate the confusion caused by Fr. Feeney’s own misunderstanding of the Church’s doctrine which led to the Church’s censure of his distortion.

Lionel:

The Letter of the Holy Office supported Fr. Leonard Feeney when it referred to the dogma. It is that dogma which you find difficult to accept like the Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Richard Cushing. It was the Archbishop who misused his office.

It is also convenient for American Catholics to say that Fr. Leonard Feeney was in heresy. It is convenient, otherwise they would have to say that the Church teaches the rigorist interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. And if it is said in public, that Catholic could be considered anti Semitic. So it could be in your self interest to hold this political position.

In Christ

Lionel


APOLOGETICS

1.POST VATICAN COUNCIL II MAGISTERIUM TEXTS SUPPORT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

Here is Dominus Iesus.

This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.-Dominus Iesus 20
So does Vatican Council II

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II

Here is the dogma.

1. “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215). Ex cathedra.

2.“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.).Ex cathedra.

3.“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex cathedra – from the website Catholicism.org
2. LUMEN GENTIUM 16 OBJECTION

If there is an objection with reference to Lumen Gentium 16 it is a straw man. LG 16 does not say that we know any case of invincible ignorance in the present times.

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.-Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II.
So Lumen Gentium 16 does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus or Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II.

Apply the Three Common Sense Points.

1. There is no way that we can know of a particular person saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire because of its very nature. It is known only to God.

2. There is no text in Vatican Council II or the Catechism which claims we know of any such case. (Lumen Gentium 16 mentions the possibility of such people being saved, which we accept conceptually. De facto we do not know if there is even one single case in the present times, or the last 100 years)

3. So Vatican Council II and the Catechism do not contradict the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.-The Three Common Sense Points

3.FR. LEONARD FEENEY SUPPORTED BY HOLY OFFICE (1949)

If there is an objection that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for affirming extra ecclesiam nulla salus, this is a falsehood. The 'dogma' referred to in the Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston 1949 indicates that all Jews in Boston need to convert into the Church to avoid Hell.

Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.

However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church…-Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston (Emphasis added).
Here is the dogma again.

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
So the Letter of the Holy Office supported Fr.Leonard Feeney on doctrine.The dogma (above) indicates all Jews in Boston need to convert into the Church to avoid Hell. This was exactly what Fr.Leonard Feeney taught.