PRIEST PRESENTS OPTIMISTIC VIEW OF SUPERNATURAL REALITY AND CANNOT PROVIDE ANY TEXT FROM VATICAN COUNCIL II

A French priest who is studying Fundamental Theology at the Gregorian University, Rome presented God as Mercy and Love and with most people, if not all going to Heaven. I was talking with him on March 18, 2011.This is a big change in Catholic understanding of objective reality at the supernatural level. Until the 1930’s it was considered that most people were going to Hell. Now in the Church there is a big shift from most people going to Hell to most people going to Heaven in the present times.

What’s new, what was responsible for the change from 1930 and 2011?

It couldn’t be Vatican Council II or the young French priest would point it out to me.

If there is nothing in Vatican Council II to attribute for this major shift, then from where did this change come?

I think a factor for this change is the secular media and the liberal interpretation of Vatican Council II, by priests and religious congregations. They have wrongly considered implicit salvation as knowable to us in the present times and so have reject the dogma extra eccleisam nulla salus.

As expected the French priest would say that there can be people saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire, with a good conscience and other forms of implicit salvation.

And I had to repeat to him that we do not know any such case in the present time.

So all these cases of implicit salvation are not in conflict with the dogma extra eccleisam nulla salus or Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II. If we knew of such cases in present times then they would conflict with the dogmatic teaching.

 

So it is common for the secular media to repeat that Vatican Council II has changed it all, ‘Vatican Council II has brought in a revolution’.

This French priest believed in this propaganda as he thought hard for some text in Vatican Council II to justify his optimistic vision of objective reality at the supernatural level, i.e. Heaven and Hell.

 

If objective reality can change after Vatican Council II then there must be some text which says so.

So he thought hard.

Lumen Gentium says that all those who are saved are saved by Jesus and the Church he said.

True I responded but this does not conflict with the dogma which says everyone needs to be a formal member o the Church with no exceptions for salvation.

 

There could be someone who is not a formal member of the Church but whose heart is in the Church he observed.

Correct! And he could be saved it would be known only to God. This too does not conflict with the dogma.

 

So what is the basis of his optimistic view of objective reality at the supernatural level?

For centuries the Church has taught that the millions of non Catholic need to convert to avoid Hell.

Why does the Church not teach it now?

He thought that we need to keep a middle ground between optimism and pessimism,

How can he keep a middle ground when you read the dogma which says clearly that millions of non Catholics are on the way to Hell?

The secular culture discourages belief in Hell and presents a glamorous-everyone- smiling image through the media.

I think more Catholics will see through the glamour when they realize that.

1. There is no text in Vatican Council which can account for this positive view of objective reality. Hell is still Hell and there people going there according to present day Catholic visionaries alive, who have seen Hell and returned to tell us about it.

2. The Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston (1949) referred to the ‘dogma’ (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence) which indicates all Jews in Boston need to convert to avoid Hell. The dogma supported Fr. Leonard Feeney. The Letter, published in the Denzinger, was not against Fr. Leonard Feeney as is being reported in the secular media for over 50 years.

 

3. There is no text in Vatican Council II which says we can know specific cases of non Catholics saved with the baptism of desire or with invincible ignorance in the present times.

De facto (in reality) we cannot know any such case (baptism of desire etc).

So if Fr. Leonard Feeney or anyone else says there is no de facto baptism of desire that we can know of, it makes sense. In principle we can accept that it is possible for someone to be saved with the baptism of desire. De facto we do not know any case.

So there is no text in Vatican Council II or the Catechism of the Catholic Church which contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or Ad Gentes 7.

The optimistic view of supernatural reality has no basis in the text of Vatican Council II.

NO CATHOLIC CORRECTS REUTERS AND RABBI'S CLAIM ABOUT VATICAN COUNCIL AND OTHER RELIGIONS

Ricardo Segni, the Rabbi in Rome (Feb.15,2010) said that if an understanding with the Society of St. Pius X is reached they, the Jewish Left, will not accept it according to DICI news.

Meanwhile the Jewish Left owned news agency Reuters has reported that Vatican Council II has changed church teaching regarding other religions. No Catholic bishop, apologist or lay organisation says its false. No one says that there is no text in Vatican Council II for such a claim.

Italy: The Chief Rabbi of Rome’s Ultimatum: “Them or Us”

“If peace with the Lefebvrists means renouncing the overtures made by the Council [Vatican II—Ed.], the Church will have to decide: them or us!” declared the chief rabbi of Rome, Riccardo Di Segni, on January 26, a few days after Benedict XVI’s visit to the Synagogue of Rome and on the eve of the Day of Remembrance dedicated to the victims of the Holocaust. Questioned by the online Italian Catholic monthly Il Consulente Re, Riccardo Di Segni added moreover that describing the Jews as “elder brothers,” (as John Paul II did during his visit to the Synagogue of Rome in 1986), was “very ambiguous from a theological point of view, because the elder brothers in the Bible are the villains.” In the eyes of the chief rabbi, speaking of “elder brothers” means: “You once were, but now you do not count at all!” Lastly, Riccardo Di Segni opined that the Sant’Egidio Community (a lay movement founded at Rome in 1968 and the originator of interreligious meetings like the one held at Assisi in 1986) was “a fine example of collaboration” between Jews and Catholics.(DICI No. 209, Feb. 6, 2010.–Sources: apic/I.Media)

No clarification has come from the Vatican or from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB). Catholic legal-public service organisations accept this with no objection.

Where is the precise text in any document of Vatican Council II for the Reuters and the Rabbi’s propaganda?

If a Catholic publication made such an error about Judaism Jewish organisations would be quick to point it to them and a correction would be made.

Vatican Council II with the text says the opposite the Jewish Left. Yes, and its not the Traditionalists or the Lefebvrists , its Vatican Council II itself.

Vatican Council II, Ad Gentes 7 instead says ‘all’ need the baptism of water for salvation. Catholics only give the baptism of water to adults with Catholic Faith. So all people need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

Vatican Council II is repeating the Traditional Catholic teaching. Does Reuters know this?

Vatican Council II has the same message as the Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston 1949. The Letter referred to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible’ teaching.

The text of the dogma like Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II says all Jews, Protestants and Orthodox Christians need to enter the Catholic Church to go to Heaven and avoid the fires of Hell.

The ex cathedra dogma like Vatican Council II (AG 7) does no claim that we know specific cases of people saved in invincible ignorance. . We do not know specific case of non Catholics saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance. We do not know any such case and neither does Vatican Council II anywhere make this claim

If someone is saved in invincible ignorance, with the baptism of desire, a good conscience, in partial communion with the Church or with perfect contrition it would be known only to God. We would not know a single case.

So when Lumen Gentium 16 says that a person can be saved in invincible ignorance it does not contradict the dogma or Ad Gentes 7. If we did know of specific cases it would contradict the dogma and Ad Gentes 7 and then the Rabbi and Reuters could claim that Vatican Council II has changed Church teaching.

So what is the basis for the Reuters propaganda that Vatican Council II has changed Church teaching with reference to other religions?

According to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican, all Jews are oriented to the fires of Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church (Letter of the Holy Office 1949). The Letter referred to the dogma. See the text of Cantate Domino,Council of Florence on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

No where in Nostra Aetate is it said that Jews do not have to convert, are saved in general in Judaism or that Jews are still the Chosen People of God.

Instead Ad Gentes 7 indicates the Catholic Faith is the chosen religion of God and Catholics are the Chosen People of God.

Reuters must realize that Vatican Council II is in agreement with the Society of St. Pius X. They both say Jews need to convert for salvation in the present times. This is the teaching of the Bible, the Church Fathers, the Apostles and Jesus ( John 3:5, Mark 16: 16)

If a Catholic legal organisation would ask Reuters for a clarification, what evidence would the reporter have?

Probably Reuters would respond by referring other Jewish Left media and organsiations. None of them can cite any text from Vatican Council II. None of them! So there is no text in Vatican Council II for Reuters claim. While AG 7 shows us that Vatican Council II is in accord with the Traditionalists.

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Vatican begins talks with ultra-traditionalists

By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY
Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:52pm EDT

(Reuters) - The Vatican began talks on Monday with an ultra-traditionalist Catholic splinter group, one of whose bishops has denied the full extent of the Holocaust, with the aim of re-integrating it fully into the Church.

Vatican officials and leaders of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) discussed what a statement called "doctrinal differences still outstanding" between the group and Rome.

The traditionalists reject many of the reforms of the 1962-1965 Second Vatican Council, which modernised many aspects of the 1.1 billion member Church, including its liturgy, its relations with other Christians and its view of Jews...

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Catholic splinter group sees no Vatican accord

Mon Feb 21, 2011

(Reuters) The lifting of those excommunications meant the four were again recognized by the Vatican as Catholics. But without an accord, they and their priests will not be recognized as Catholic clergy or be allowed to exercise an official ministry.

The SSPX, which retains the centuries-old Latin Mass and other Catholic traditions, insists it represents the true faith and the Vatican and the rest of the 1.2 billion-strong Church went off the rails at the Council.

Benedict shares their appreciation for tradition and lifted limits on the old Latin Mass in 2007 as a concession to them, but has drawn the line on other Council reforms such as its historic reconciliation with Judaism and other faiths. It was not clear what the Vatican might do if no agreement is reached with the SSPX, which has continued operating as an independent church and ordaining new priests despite an appeal from Rome to refrain from doing so during the talks.

In the interview, Fellay repeated his criticism of Benedict for inviting world religious leaders to meet in the Italian city of Assisi in October, on the 25th anniversary of a similar faith summit organised there by the late Pope John Paul.

He said the pope might have called it because of a recent wave of anti-Christian violence in Muslim countries but said SSPX followers should "pray that the Good Lord intervenes in one way or another so that it doesn't take place."

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