RealCatholicTV has sent me the link of Dr. Brenner’s talk on salvation. They have responded to the posts addressed to them. They still seem unable to do a program on the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
They could begin by pointing out that the two objective errors on Wikipedia.
Wikipedia implies that Lumen Gentium 16 (invincible ignorance) is an exception to the dogma and so this is the teaching today of the Catholic Church.
1. According to Wikipedia, the Catholic Church does not teach anymore that everyone needs to be a visible member of the Church for salvation and
2. all those who are saved are saved today through Jesus and the Church, implying those saved implicitly are known to us and so they contradict the dogma. The dogma indicates everyone with no exception needs to be an explicit, formal member of the Church.
Of course we believe all those who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church. We also believe that everyone needs to be a visible member of the Church of salvation. There is no contradiction between the two statements. Wikipedia implies there is a contradiction.
3. There is no mention of the text of the dogma Cantate Domino Council of Florence. Cantate Domino for centuries said everyone needs to be a visible member of the Church for salvation.
Real Catholic TV could do a program on this subject.
1. It could show the text of Cantate Domino and how it was interpreted over the centuries.
2. It could show how Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma since we do not know any particular case saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience, partial communion with the church etc.Implicit salvation is only known to God.
3. It can show how Wikipedia’s claim that everyone does not have to be a member of the Church for salvation is wrong. It is an interpretation. A new doctrine.
Please remember that Pope Pius XII in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston supported Fr. Leonard Feeney when he referred to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible’ statement. The dogma Cantate Domino indicates every non Catholic in Boston needs to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. This is the same message as that of Fr. Leonard Feeney.
Fr. Leonard Feeney from Boston also said that there is no baptism of desire that we can know of. So the baptism of desire does not contradict the dogma.
Neither are we likely to meet a person in Boston saved with the baptism of blood (martyrdom). This is irrational but this is what Wikipedia implies and it is accepted by Catholics.
These are objective factual errors of Wikipedia. They need to be pointed out.
There are so many religious Congregations in Rome, ask some of them what did the founders of their Congregation believe in – the ‘strict interpretation’ of extra ecclesiam nulla salus or the Wikipidia version?
Since Wikipedia considers implicit baptism of desire etc as explicitly known in particular cases it would mean Vatican Council II and the popes contradict themselves. Lumen Gentium 14 (all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation) is contradicted by Lumen Gentium 15 and 16 (implicit salvation explcitly known to us).Pope Pius XII in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 affirms ‘the dogma’ (‘strict interpretation’) and also denies it with an ‘explicit’ baptism of desire. It would mean he affirms Cantate Domino and also denies it with an explicitly known baptism of desire. It would mean Pope John Paul II in the Catechism of the Catholic Church N.1257 says every one needs explicit baptism of water for salvation but some people do not ‘explicitly’ need the Sacraments.
It would be rational to say every body needs the baptism of water for salvation and there could be those saved implicitly and who are known only to God.
This irrationality is a major cause of dissent and confusion in the Church. http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/see-difference.html
-Lionel Andrades
E-mail: lionelandrades10@gmail.com
WORLD YOUTH DAY : QUESTIONS UNANSWERED BY RealCatholicTV
REAL CATHOLIC TV ADMINISTRATION IN CONFUSION OVER DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
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