Thursday, November 24, 2011

CATHOLICS UNITED FOR THE FAITH IMPLIES THOSE SAVED WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE ARE VISIBLE,FR.LEONARD FEENEY WAS EXCOMMUNICATED FOR AFFIRMING THE SAME TEACHING AS SAINTS AND POPES

The dogma outside the church there is no salvation is not meant to allow exclusivism states Catholics United for the Faith, Steubenville, USA.(1) They do no refer to the ‘dogma’ but to the ‘phrase’ and imply that those saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to the teaching of the dogma.

It is contradictory when Catholics United for the Faith implies:
Every one needs to be an explicit, visible member of the Church (de facto) for salvation and non Catholics in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are defacto saved without the baptism of water and it is known to us.

It is not contradictory if they say:
Defacto every one with no exception needs to enter the Church as taught by ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible statement’. (Letter of the Holy Office 1949 during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII).De jure a person can be saved with the baptism of desire. (Letter of the Holy Office 1949 during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII)

It is contradictory when they imply:
De facto all people need to enter the Catholic Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation. (Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).De facto some people can be saved in invincible ignorance. (Lumen Gentium 16).It is not contradictory when they imply:De facto all people need to enter the Catholic Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation. (Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes7).De jure some people can be saved in invincible ignorance. (Lumen Gentium 16).

Due to the contradiction in the interpretation of magisterial texts they seem to be saying that those saved with the baptism of desire are visible and so are an exception to the dogma. The dogma indicates everyone needs to be an explicit, visible member of the church to go to Heaven.

If the baptism of desire was implicit for them it would not contradict the dogma, it would not be an exception. Since it is allegedly explicitly known, it is an exception to the dogma. It is an error to imply that those saved with the baptism of desire as being de facto known to us.

Some of the CUF members also believe Fr. Leonard Feeney was ‘condemned’ for holding the same view as the popes, including Pope Pius XII, who referred to 'the dogma', the saints and the dogma itself. They assume that Fr. Leonard Feeney said that there are no exceptions to the dogma and that the baptism of desire etc are not exceptions. For them the baptism of desire is defacto and explicitly known to us and so Fr. Leonard Feeney was wrong. So were the popes and saints.

(a) No one knows of a particular case of someone being saved with the baptism of desire even though it is being assumed as being visible (b) Fr. Leonard Feeney was not excommunicated for repeating the same teaching of the popes, Councils, saints and the thrice-defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They were all saying that de facto every adult needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. They did not consider the baptism of desire as explicit but knew that it was always implicit.

CUF implies that Vatican Council II has changed our concept of Church since those saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16) etc are visible and de facto known to us in the present times.This is a new ecclesiology with no basis in Vatican Council II and contrary to the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence.

Here are extracts from the CUF article:

CUF: Pius IX clearly expressed the full teaching a century ago. His writing distinguishes between those who are invincibly ignorant and those who have wilfully separated themselves from the Catholic Church:
There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion...Also well-known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved [without] the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior (no. 7).

Lionel: Yes there are those who can be saved in invincible ignorance and these are not exceptions to the dogma, they are not contradictory to the teaching that every one with no exception needs to be a visible, explicit member of the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell.

CUF: This teaching of Christ and His Church is not meant to allow indifferentism or exclusivism.
Lionel: The dogma indicates that there is exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church.

CUF: Baptism and unity with the Catholic Church provide the only assurance of salvation, but not the only means. "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments" (Catechism, no. 1257, original emphasis).

Lionel: God has bound salvation to the baptism of water and unity with the Catholic Church, true. This is the only means. Since those who are saved with the baptism of desire etc are known only to God and we do not know if there is a single case in the present times on earth. Neither can we administer the baptism of desire to anyone. So the only means for salvation on earth is Catholic Faith with the baptism of water.

CUF:
Because God is not bound by the sacraments, He makes the grace of salvation available to all in ways unknown to us. This is the basis for the Church’s teaching on "Baptism of desire" (cf. Catechism, nos. 1258-60, 1281). This occurs, for example, when one seeks Baptism but dies first, or when one dies without explicit knowledge of Christ, but would have embraced the truth had it been presented. Only God can judge their souls.

Lionel: True and this does not mean that there are any such known cases in the present times or that these are exceptions to the dogma Cantate Domino,Council of Florence.

CUF: Without the Church There is No Salvation
ISSUE: What does the Catholic Church mean by the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation" (extra ecclesiam nulla salus)?
RESPONSE: All salvation comes through Jesus Christ, the one Savior of the world (cf. Acts 4:12). His Holy Spirit dispenses those graces through His body, the Church. "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Lk. 10:16).

Lionel: All salvation comes through Jesus Christ, true. And this salvation is available only in the Catholic Church. In the present times only those who are members of the Catholic Church are on the way to salvation.We do not know any case of someone saved in the non Catholic religions or Christian Churches and communities in the present time.

CUF: This examination will reveal that the phrase was not formulated to express who would go to heaven and who would go to hell, for only God will judge that. Rather, the phrase expresses an understanding of the Church in relation to her role in the salvation of the world.

Lionel: The dogma indicates millions of non Catholics are oriented to Hell. We personally cannot say in particular that a person is in Hell but the dogma, Scripture and Tradition tell us that certain actions lead to Hell.

CUF: On the other hand, many of the Fathers did write about those who were invincibly ignorant of the Gospel. Of these, the Fathers accepted that salvation was open to them, even if in a mysterious way. The Fathers recognized that the natural law of justice and virtue is written on the hearts of all men. Those who respect this law respect the Lawgiver, though they do not know Him. As St. Justin Martyr wrote in the second century.

Lionel: The Church Fathers mentioned those who can be saved in invincible ignorance .They nowhere claim that we can judge for sure who has been saved in this condition. They accept it as a possibility known to God.

Neither do they say that this is an exception to all people needing Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. CUF assumes the Church Fathers consider invincible ignorance as an exception. One has to imply that those saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to the dogma.

CUF: Boniface VIII wrote concerning the nature of the Church and the supremacy of the Pope. He did not write concerning the damnation of those who have never heard the Gospel.

Lionel: Cantate Domino, Council of Florence is specific on this subject and mentions the damnation of Christians and non Christians who do not convert into the Church.CUF omits any reference to Cantate Domino.
-Lionel Andrades

1.
Without the Church There is No Salvation,
Faith Facts, THE ANSWERS YOU NEED,
Apologetics, webiste of Catholics United for the Faith.
http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=146

ECCLESSIOLOGY OF ENGLISH BISHOPS HIT BY TWO ERRORS 1) VISIBLE BAPTISM OF DESIRE 2) FR.LEONARD FEENEY EXCOMMUNICATED FOR THE SAME VIEW AS POPES, SAINTS AND DOGMA OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION





English bishops use an interpretation of Magisterial texts which contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction as taught to Catholic seminarians.

It is assumed by the bishops that those saved among Christians and non Christians, in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, a good conscience, with ‘the seeds of the Word’ or in imperfect communion with the Church, are known to us in the present times and this is the ordinary way of salvation. They imply that this is an exception to the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation. So Protestants just have to believe in Jesus and they are saved in their religion through this ordinary means.This is a rejection of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).Vatican Council II indicates that the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (LG 14, AG 7).

It is contradictory for the bishops to say:

De facto every one needs to be an explicit, visible member of the Church of salvation and defacto non Catholics in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire can be saved without the baptism of water.

It is not contradictory when they say:

Defacto every one with no exception needs to enter the Church as taught by ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible statement’.(Letter of the Holy Office 1949 during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII)

De jure a person can be saved with the baptism of desire.(Letter of the Holy Office 1949 during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII)

It is contradictory when they believe:

De facto all people need to enter the Catholic Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation.(Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).

De facto some people can be saved in invincible ignorance.(Lumen Gentium 16).

It is not contradictory when they believe:

De facto all people need to enter the Catholic Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation. (Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium 14,Ad Gentes7).

De jure some people can be saved in invincible ignorance.(Lumen Gentium 16).

English bishops use an interpretation of Magisterial texts which contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction as taught to Catholic seminarians.It is contradictory to common sense , even a lay man can notice, to imply that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are de facto known to us

Due to the contradiction in the interpretation young candidates with a religious vocation in England have to say everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation in the present times but there could be defacto exceptions like those saved with the baptism of desire. The baptism of desire is assumed to be visible and so is an exception to the dogma.The dogma indicates everyone needs to be an explicit, visible member of the church to go to Heaven.

If the baptism of desire was implicit for candidates it would not contradict the dogma, it would not be an exception. Since it is allegedly explicitly known, it is an exception to the dogma. It is an error for the bishops to interpret those saved with the baptism of desire as being de facto known to us.

Candidates with a religious vocation in England would also have to accept that Fr. Leonard Feeney was ‘condemned’ for holding the same view as the popes, including Pope Pius XII, who referred to 'the dogma', the saints and the dogma itself. Since the bishops assume that Fr.Leonard Feeney said that there are no exceptions to the dogma and that the baptism of desire etc are not exceptions. For the bishops the baptism of desire is defacto and explicitly known to us and so Fr.Leonard Feeney was wrong. So were the popes and saints.

(a) No one knows of a particular case of someone being saved with the baptism of desire even though it is being assumed as being visible (b) Fr.Leonard Feeney was not excommunicated for repeating the same teaching of the popes, Councils, saints and the thrice-defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They were all saying that de facto every adult needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. They did not consider the baptism of desire as explicit but knew that it was always implicit.

They imply that Vatican Council II has changed our concept of Church since those saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16) etc are visible and de facto known to us in the present times.
-Lionel Andrades

CATHOLIC BISHOPS CONFERENCE OF ENGLAND AND WALES SAYS THOSE SAVED WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE, INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE ARE VISIBLE TO US

ECUMENISM OF THE ENGLISH BISHOPS CONTRARY TO VATICAN COUNCIL II