Says we know of cases of those saved with the baptism of desire in Heaven and that invincible ignorance is the ordinary means of salvation. He says not all non Catholics are oriented to Hell but only those who know about Jesus and the Church and then he assumes that he knows and that most people do not know about Jesus and the Church and so are saved. Catholic Faith and the baptism of water are not the ordinary means of salvation for him.
A retired priest of the Archdiocese of Sydney, Australia, Fr. John Michael George on the internet Discussion Board True Catholic in reality denies the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. He assumes that those saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance or with ‘the seeds of the Word’ are defacto exceptions to the dogma and that we also know these explicit, visible cases in Heaven.
He says on this board that he accepts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. However for him the dogma does not say all non Catholics are oriented to Hell but only those who ‘know’. Only they are culpable. This is his view even though the text of the dogma does not say only those who know and do not enter are damned. The text of the dogma says all need to convert. It does not mention any exceptions.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church can be interpreted in two ways. CCC 846 refers to those who can be saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. In principle we accept this as a possibility. When Fr. John Michael George assumes that these cases saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are defacto known to us, he assumes it contradicts the dogma which says all need to convert into the Church.
Here are two interpretations of the Catechism CCC 846 :
1. Only those who know and who do not enter the Church are damned and not all non Catholics in general.
2. In principle (de jure) only those who know and do not enter the Church are damned and not those in invincible ignorance while, defacto (in reality) everyone with no known exception on earth needs to enter the Church for salvation.
He also says ‘the seeds of the Word’ (Vatican Council II) are present in other religions and so non Catholics can be saved in general. They can also be saved in general in invincible ignorance for him. This contradicts the Church teaching that the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. The Church is the ordinary means of salvation (Redemptoris Missio 55).One can only convert into the Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith. One cannot choose to convert with the baptism of desire etc.
Only in principle (de jure) those with the baptism of desire etc can be saved and we do not know any such case in reality (de facto). So it does not contradict the dogma which says all need to convert into the Church.
Thousands of Muslims who ‘know’ according to Fr. John George Michael are oriented to Hell.
When it is assumed that the Catechism refers to defacto, visible exceptions then automatically it is assumed that only those who know about Jesus and the Church and do not become Catholics are culpable on the Day of Judgment. Those who do not know and have not had the Gospel preached to them, of course, are not culpable.
Even when Fr. John George Michael says only those who know about Jesus and the Church are culpable (LG 14) there are thousands of educated, informed non Catholics in Sydney, Australia. They ‘know’ and so they are all oriented to Hell.
There could be some non Catholics in remote areas of Australia who are in invincible ignorance (and God could send a preacher to them to baptize them as St.Thomas Aquinas taught).In the major cities of Australia they ‘know’ about Jesus and the Catholic Church and so according to Fr. John’s logic millions are oriented to Hell. According to LG 14 all or most Muslims and other non Catholics in Sydney, are oriented to Hell. This is the teaching of Vatican Council II (LG 14). According to Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) all, ALL, Muslims and other non Catholics, in fact all people, need to enter the Church for salvation.
The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus says all the non Catholics are oriented to the fires of Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church. They carry the stain of Original Sin on their soul, commit mortal sins in this state and do not have access to the Sacraments since they are not Catholics.
The issue is also the Eucharist.How can a priest deny a defined dogma with alleged defacto known exceptions and then offer Holy Mass? It is a public mortal sin to deny this dogma on the internet forum. Without Confession and public amends to remove the scandal how can a priest offer Holy Mass in Sydney?
I am reading a book which says Jesus mentioned Hell about 20 times. Jesus said most people go to Hell (enter through the narrow gate). At Fatima Our Lady said that many people go to Hell. Sr. Lucia saw a river of fire with many souls within. The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus indicates millions of non Catholics who have died without Catholic Faith and the baptism of water are on the way to the fires of Hell. The Bible tells us that Hell has fire. So do the saints. St. Teresa of Avila, Faustina Kowalski and others saw many people in Hell.
-Lionel Andrades
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