Monday, June 4, 2012

Fr. Francois Laisney indicates that for the SSPX the Church is no more ecclesiocentric since there are explicit exceptions to the dogma on salvation

Fr.Francois Laisney of the SSPX ‘s controversial book Is Feeneyism Catholic is available on the Internet and it indicates why the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) does not realize that their error is in ecclesiology, the rejection of ecclesiocentrism and not realizing that Vatican Council II is a traditional Council in agreement with traditional values, including that of the SSPX on other religions, ecumenism and religious liberty.

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre admitted that a person could be saved in invincible ignorance etc but did not say that these cases were explicitly known to us or that they are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

In the book made available for SSPX seminarians Fr.Laisney who has been associated with the Australian branch of the community writes on the baptism of desire and is critical of Fr.Leonard Feeney just like the liberals.

His oversight is : he assumes that the baptism of desire is  an explicit exception to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

If Fr.Leonard Feeney accepted the baptism of desire or rejected it , he does not realize, is irrelevant to his literal interpretation of the dogma.

This is the point missed out by other SSPX priests too and also their bishops.Since they assume that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are explicit exceptions to the dogma they assume that LG 16, Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla  salus. This was the propaganda of Fr.Hans Kung but the error  originated with Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Jesuits in Boston in the 1940’s.

Since the SSPX believes that those saved with a good conscience etc are known to us they assume that Vatican Council II contradicts the traditional teaching on other religions etc.

So for the SSPX the Church is no more ecclesiocentric since there are explicit exceptions to the dogma on salvation.

Fr. Peter Scott of the SSPX writes:
Many erudite works (I recommend Father Rulleau’s book, Baptism of Desire and Father Laisney’s new book, Is Feeneyism Catholic? published by Angelus Press, which will be available by the end of May) list texts from the Fathers and theologians, who are unanimous in their teaching about the possibility of baptism of blood and desire.
http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/feeneyism/may_01_district_superiors_letter.htm
The Church Fathers  are unanimous in their teaching about the possibility of baptism of desire but none of them claim that these cases are explicitly known as Fr. Scott implies. None of them have said that the baptism of desire is an explicit exception to the dogma on salvation. So for Fr. Scott the Church is no more ecclesiocentric. There  are known exceptions. No wonder their community is confused on Vatican Council II. They say they accept extra ecclesiam nulla salus but mean there are explicit exceptions to the traditional interpretation.

The problem is not with Vatican Council II but their interpretation which is irrational. Since cases saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are unknown to us. They can only be accepted in principle.They cannot be exceptions known to us.



It's now a few years that I have been writing on this subject . No one from the SSPX refutes what I write or even comments.-Lionel Andrades



VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF: LUMEN GENTIUM 14 AND AD GENTES 7 DO NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF :NEITHER ARE THEY CONTRADICTED BY LUMEN GENTIUM 16

LUMEN GENTIUM 14 DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/06/lumen-gentium-14-does-not-contradict.html#links
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.- Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II.

Nostra Aetate does not contradict Ad Gentes 7
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/05/nostra-aetate-does-not-contradict-ad.html#links

Here are passages from Lumen Gentium 16

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator.-Lumen Gentium 16
Lionel: There can be people saved among those who acknowdge the Creator. They are not saved in general in their religion since the ordinary means of salvation is the Catholic Church. (Redemptoris Missio 55). The ordinary means is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (AG 7).

So in principle all people need to enter the Church and there could be people saved among those who acknowledge the Creator. De facto, in fact, in reality all need to enter the Church for salvation and there are no known exeptions.
In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.-Lumen Gentium 16
Lionel:So in principle they can be saved ‘in certain circumstances’(Letter of the Holy Office) and in general all need to enter the Church for salvation. Defacto, explicitly all need to enter the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water or salvation ( AG 7) and there are no known exceptions.So LG 16 does non contradict AG7.Neither does it contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.-Lumen Gentium 16
Lionel: In principle, yes. In reality, we do not know any of these cases in 2012.So they do not contradict AG 7 and LG 14.

-Lionel Andrades
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16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.-Lumen Gentium 16,Vatican Council II (emphasis added)

CONFERENCE NEEDED

There was the Fatima Conference last month in Rome in which apologist John Salza was one of the speakers. On June 9 Fr. Tim Finigan is to speak at a Latin Mass Society One Day Conference: ‘Traditional Liturgy and Catholic Life’. There was a conference addressed by Cardinal Kurt Koch on May 16 at the Angelicum.The pope will speak at a conference organized in Rome on May 11 on the baptism of water. None of them will have said that in principle all people need the baptism of water for salvation and there could be exceptions While defacto (in reality, in fact) every one needs the baptism of water for salvation and there are no known exceptions.

John Salza and Tim Finigan have difficulty with the subject of baptism of desire and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Cardinal Koch denies the dogma outright. The pope is expected to say every one needs the baptism of water for salvation but some people do not need the baptism of water for salvation. We may  have to make the in principle, in fact distinction to clear the confusion.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 says all who are saved are saved though Jesus and the Church and this statement does not contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma on salvation.There are many Catholics who believe that since ‘we know’ people saved in invincible ignorance not everyone needs to enter the Church but only those ‘who know’.This is a point not touched at conferences.

Could some conference 'leak’ out the information that according to the Bishop of Worcester USA all religious communities could hold the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus along with implicit baptism of desire and not knowing cases of persons saved in invincible ignorance. This is such an important point and yet speakers at the many Catholic conferences are unaware of it.

Someone should hold a conference for the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) on the theme 'Vatican Council II does not clash with the SSPX position on ecumenism and other religions.'
‘I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. This must be preached.”-Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, pp. 217-218]
 Elsewhere he has said that there could be people in other religions saved with implicit desire.

He has not said that these cases are known to us and so they are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.Bishop Fellay assumes it is.There should be a few conferences on just this subject.

1. Implicit desire etc is not an exception to the literal interpretation of the dogma according to Fr.Leonard Feeney.

2. The Archbishop did not say it was.

3. If the SSPX bishops can realize this then LG 16 is not an exception to the literal ‘formulation’ of extra ecclesiam nulla salus which ‘must be preached’.

4. Then Vatican Council II (AG 7) supports their position on ecumenism and other religions.
-Lionel Andrades