Peter and Michael Dimond still mulling over question

A few weeks back I received some mail from the Dimond Brothers and I asked them to answer one question and to please give me permission to quote them.The question was: Do we know anyone in 2012 saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire ? (Are these cases visible to us?)

There is no reply. Since they assume that these cases are visible to us in the present times and so are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So they reject these cases even in principle.

Since they assume that these cases are explicit and can be an exception to the dogma on salvation and since they reject these cases even in principle, they call any one a heretic who acknowledges the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance.

So for them too Vatican Council II has to be a break from the past.They are using the false premise of being able to see the dead and they assume we can see the dead saved in invincible ignorance etc and so these cases have to be an exception to the dogma.

The fault is not with Vatican Council II but their use of the false premise.

-Lionel Andrades

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/E-Exchanges.php



QUESTIONS FOR THE SSPX LEADERSHIP

1. Do we know anyone in 2012-2013 saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance? (Are these cases visible to us?)

2. Since we cannot see anyone of these cases in 2013 are they exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?

3.Does Vatican Council II mention anyone saved in invincible ignorance and a good conscience (Lumen Gentium 16), elements of sanctification (Lumen Gentium 8), seeds of the word (Ad Gentes ), imperfect communion with the church (Unitatis Redintigratio) etc, whom we know?

4.Since we cannot see any of these cases in 2013 are they exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?

5. Does Vatican Council II contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus? (If Yes, could you cite some cases)

6. Ad Gentes 7 says all need faith and baptism is in accord with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ? There are no exceptions mentioned in Vatican Council II to Ad Gentes 7? (Lumen Gentium 16 is not an exception since we do not know any case of a person saved in invincible ignorance and a good concscience)

Lionel Andrades

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes7,Vatican Council II.

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1. Noi conosciamo qualcuno in 2012-2013 chi e salvato con battesimo di desiderio o in invincibile ignoranza ? ( Questi casi sono visibile per noi ?)

2.Qual ora noi non potessimo conoscere questi case in 2012-2013, loro sarebbero eccezioni per il dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?

 

3.Noi consciamo qualcuno che ha ricevuto salvezza in invincibile ignoranza e una buona coscienza (Lumen Gentium 16), elementi di santificazione (Lumen Gentium 8), semi di verbo (Ad Gentes ), imperfetto communione con la Chiesa (Unitatis Reintigratio) ecc. sul Concilio Vaticano II ?

4.Se noi non possiamo vedere questi casi sul 2013 loro sono e eccezione per il dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?

5.Il Concilio Vaticano II contradicce il dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Qualora rispondisse si, potrebbe fare citazione di testa?)

6. Ad Gentes 7 dice che tutti hanno bisogno di fede e battesimo e in accordo con il dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus? E non esistono eccezioni menzionate nel Concilio Vaticano II ? ( Lumen Gentium 16 non è un'eccezione poiché non conosciamo alcun caso di una persona salvata in ignoranza invincibile e una buona coscienza)

-Lionel Andrades

È dunque necessario che tutti si convertano al Cristo conosciuto attraverso la predicazione della Chiesa, ed a lui e alla Chiesa, suo corpo, siano incorporati attraverso il battesimo (39). Cristo stesso infatti, « ribadendo espressamente la necessità della fede e del battesimo (cfr. Mc 16,16; Gv 3,5), ha confermato simultaneamente la necessità della Chiesa, nella quale gli uomini entrano, per così dire, attraverso la porta del battesimo.-Ad Gentes 7,Concilio Vaticano II

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