Monday, March 18, 2013

Michael Voris' question to Fr.Jonathan Morris could also be directed to the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney, the St.Benedict Centers

...and Michael Voris could also direct the question, he asked Fr.Jonathan Morris, to the communities of Fr. Leonard Feeney, the St.Benedict Centers,(SBC) USA.

On the surface it would appear that the question does not apply to the SBC since they have been saying that every body needs the baptism of water to go to Heaven and there are no exceptions. For them there are no exceptions of the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance.


Yet they never have corrected the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) by telling them, that the baptism of desire etc are hypothetical and not visible to us.So they cannot be exceptions. Instead they have gone into theology.

Neither have they corrected the many writers on the Internet who assume the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.The SBC has never said that the baptism of desire is not visible to us. So we cannot name any exception.

The apologists Mons. Fenton and Fr.William Most have never considered the baptism of desire as irrelevant to extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the St.Benedict Centers have not noticed it.

If the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 said it was relevant to the dogma then it made a factual mistake.It is a fact that we cannot see the dead.


It is because the SBC have considered being saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance, as being visible, that they assume Vatican Council II contradicts extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the traditional teaching on other religions and ecumenism.

Michael Voris could ask them : Can you name someone saved in invincible ignorance or a good conscience (Lumen Gentium 16 )?Could you name someone saved with elements of sanctification (Lumen Gentium 8 ) ?These cases would have to visible for us if Vatican Council II is to contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus.


Yes every needs to enter the Church, I would agree with the SBC and have done so all these years, but elements of sanctification and invincible ignorance are not visible to us and so they are not issue related to the dogma.On the de fide component of the dogma I agree with the SBC. I adnire them for holding firmly to the Faith and the truth all these years while we were in confusion.

Where does Vatican Council II contradict the Catholic Church's teaching on other religions and extra ecclesiam nulla salus, if there are no visible exceptions ?


Then I am told by SBC supporters that if one claims there is even one person in Heaven saved without the baptism of water it contradicts the dogma.Yes, this would be true !-if the baptism of desire etc were visible. How can invisible cases contradict Fr.Leonard Feeney ?


So when Fr.Jonathan Morris said on Fox News 'that not every one needs to be Catholic' Michael Voris asked him to name someone who does not have to be Catholic. Does he know anyone personally ? Is there such a case visible to him ? ( 'What Did he Just Say ? (March 1,2013 )ChurchMilitant TV.com video ).Fr.Jonathan Morris has not commented or apologised over the last few weeks.

Michael Voris could ask the SSPX and the FSSP the same question.That question could also be asked of the traditionalists at the St.Benedict Center in the dioceses of Worcester and Manchester,USA.

Basically, what he will be asking is: how can Vatican Council II be considered modernist, with regard to other religions and Christian communities, unless it is assumed that references to salvation in Vatican Council II are of cases visible to us in 2013.So then they would be  known exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They would also be  known exceptions to Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II which says all need 'faith and baptism' for salvation. If there are no names then the Council does not contradict Tradition.The Council is not a break with the past.

We cannot name any 'good and holy' (NA) non Catholic saved in 2013 , we cannot name any one saved 'in imperfect communion with the Church' (UR), we cannot name any one, known personally, saved with the 'seeds of the Word' etc.


The Council does not contradict itself or the dogma on salvation nor Fr.Leonard Feeney , unless we assume , like liberals and traditionalists and sedevacantists, that the dead who are saved, are visible to us and so we can name them.
-Lionel Andrades

Michael Vorris' question to Fr.Jonathan Moris could also be directed to the Society of St.Pius X
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/03/michael-vorris-question-to-frjonathan.html#links

http://eens.forumotion.com/t20-frjonathan-morris-needs-to-apologise-says-michael-voris#226

It has been part of Fr.Jonathan Morris' formation that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and that Vatican Council II contradicts itself

GOD FORGIVES AGAIN AND AGAIN- Pope Francis

I was an hour early for the Angelus yesterday (March 17,2013 ) and had a little place to stand at St.Peter's Square from where I could see the window where the pope would appear. The weather had held out for that time and there wa no rain. Rain clouds had hid the sunlight.

For an hour before the Angelus the pope was meeting people, even on on the street outside the Vatican, and this could be seen on the graint TV screens in the piazza.

The first non European pope, in centuries,spoke without any prepared text, and he spoke about God's mercy. He said one thing which was important and he wanted us to remember, was that God forgives again and again.God is merciful and expects all of us to be merciful too. God forgives again and again.

We could hear the pope intermittently. Since the sound system was not working at St.Peter's Square and we could hear the pope on and off. Even some parts of the Angelus, prayed in Latin, were not heard.Though sound speakers near the centre of the road leading to St.Peters' was working and they could be heard in the piazza.

The pope was speaking in Italian. Not being a polyglot he  could not address different groups in their native language, as did Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Perhaps overtime we will hear him speak in Polish, German and French.
Pope Francis Bergoglio!-representing Jesus Christ in the ony Church Jesus founded outside of which there is no salvation and in which all people throughout the world ,need to convert, to go to Heaven and avoid Hell. The 266th pope with the power to forgive sins, turn ordinary bread into the Spiritual Body of Jesus, present in His physical Body, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist. A pope who can save a person at the last moment before death,from being lost for all eternity to the demons, fierce fires and screams of Hell, where there is no pardon of God.

In Hell, Dante saw a pope suffering.Sister Josepha Menendez saw priests and sisters in Hell. At Garabandal,Spain Our Lady said that there were cardinals, bishops and priests who were going to Hell and taking many souls with them. Sister Faustina Kowalski says the time of mercy is now while we are still alive.After we die it will be the time of Justice. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states only one mortal sin(un-Confessed)can take a soul to Hell.(Mortal sins include masturbation, fornication,watching pornography, stealing and cheating in big amounts,politically supporting communists and atheists, violating the Ten Commandments ...)

God is love, God is forgiving as the pope says- but it is only for those who respond and ask for  forgiveness in the Sacrament of Confession, in the Catholic Church. God's pardon is available for all. It is universal. However only those persons will be saved who respond.(Dominus Iesus 20).So though salvation is freely available  there is a condition.
-Lionel Andrades

Photo Catholic News Agency